So where were we? Ah yes, genocide against the Amalekites. I see what you did there. What you are doing is changing the argument to suit your conclusion or not understanding what you are arguing against. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's probably the latter. Do correct me if I'm wrong.
When first we began it was posited (ooooh, big word in small package!) that christianity teaches peace to people who want to be taught peace and violence if they want violence... I corrected you and then you moved on to the strawman and I figured it would just take less time to do this as a blog as opposed to twidenting back and forth all week. :-)
So first, let's go back to the original issue.
christianity teaches peace to people who want to be taught peace and violence if they want violence.
Again. No. To understand why this is so simple to put down (in my head at least) we need definitions. Actually, just one: Christianity. Christianity is not the Bible. It is a doctrine, a set of teachings, beliefs if you prefer put forth by a man. A man I like to call the Son of God, but you may disagree with me on this point; that man is Jesus Christ. Christianity's doctrine then, is whatever Jesus says. He references the commandments, belief in Him as the Son of God and the only way to God, and repentance of sins. There's also a liberal sprinkling of other stuff we should do. Nowhere (to my knowledge, but correct me if I'm wrong) does He say genocide is ok. Ever. If you disagree with me that this is what Christianity is, then we are forever doomed to argue this point and I might as well move on.
Now let's go back to the strawman.
... but genocide on the Amalekites is peachy? Folks take what they want from the bible. Luckly our morals aren't Biblically inspired.
As presented, it goes something like this: Jesus' teachings make up christianity. Jesus' teachings are in the Bible. The Bible advocates genocide, ergo christianity advocates genocide (if you want it to).
Ahem: No. :-)
Let's ignore the fact that we don't even need to dig as far down as Samuel to see evidence of God's Holy Wrathâ„¢ (Noah and the Ark anyone?). Yes, God has instructed Israel (not us) to wipe out a nation or two. Man, woman, child and all. And I do mean all, even the animals. Now that's harsh. However (and here's where we'll certainly disagree) it's not genocide when God does it. It's judgement, and not just plain ol' judgement either. Oh no! It's righteous judgement. Now there are many arguments which could be made as to why a perfect, all-loving God would allow, encourage or do this but I've been typing two hours already. Here's the short version: He's God, he knows better than you. Irregardless, God has deliberately chosen to not deal with us like this for millenia since. And the
status quo definitely flipped the script once Jesus was born (oh yah, i went there).
Which brings me to thing no. the third (I'm not even going to touch the Constantine thing except to say : Wong!).
the OT does seem to be only selectively irrelevant...
The Old Testament isn't selectively irrelevant, you're just (with all due respect) missing the point. it's actually quite relevant, even today. Actually especially today. It teaches us a bit about human nature with the Children of Israel playing the role of us. (Wow, getting long. Still with me?) You see the Children of Israel were God's chosen people but they were stubborn. They'd disobey every so often, be punished, asked for forgiveness, be forgiven, GO BACK AND DO THE EXACT SAME THING, and start the whole cycle over again. We today do the same thing only we call it repentance. Welcome to saving grace of Christianity. Actually, that is saving grace. I tried to be punny just now. It'd take a much longer post to really get into this (and thus this explanation will utterly fail to satisfy you, but hopefully perk you're interest enough to check it out with your local pastor or so). Take home message, we're imperfect, we sin. God loves us and forgives us. He also punishes us because he loves us (kinda sounds like a parent, eh?) because sometimes we just won't get it otherwise.
To wrap it all up (and you should reaaaaally check out the stuff below with other christians/pastors/theologans/the bible :-))
When Jesus came to earth he preached forgiveness of sins, loving your enemy and much cheek turnage (actually just read all of Matthew 5, it's short). An apparent contradiction from the Old Testament where it was eye for eye and
So in conclusion: Christianity does not teach different things to different people. It teaches one thing in many ways, love for God first and foremost, and love for your fellow man next (with those two taken care of love naturally ebbs and flows to the remaining variable in that equation).
Some of us get miss the mark and are either too zealous for God (note the absence of the word love in that description) or love people more than they do God. The latter might not sound so bad but states of mind are equally desctructive (jealousy, lust, addiction vs. religious fanaticism, scorn, condemnatory). The bad thing about this is that they still say they are christians and really some are trying to be. Thing is we as people suck. We're selfish, insecure (and generally all around sinful) and find it hard to kick these habits (because of our sinful nature). That's why you'll find people in church after seeing them in the bar doing, well - y'know. But you know what church isn't for holy people anyway, it's for sinners like you 'n' me. And anyone who isn't a sinner is just there to help, not laugh at you or make you feel bad. If they do, they fail at christianity and you should find yourself another church. And if it's too hard to find one yourself. Pray. I'm sure He'll answer :-)
P.S. Our morals are biblically inspired. :-pppppppppppppppp
illogic-al.Org
Great Post
Nice one mate, I agree with pretty much everything you said.
Christians are a crappy representation of our religion and an abysmal one for Christ. Jesus' teachings are what matters and you can't argue he taught violence whichever way you spin it and I'm sure pretty much all Christians would agree that his teachings are the core of their faith.
I'm a woman
If the blue dog democrats disagree with the DNC's core beliefs then that argument would not be valid.
But does the DNC have the
But does the DNC have the right to define what it means to be a Democrat?
Let's not get caught up in my analogy though. ;) Mostly my point was that if you had said Methodism (who do have a clear authoritative organization) instead of Christianity this whole conversation wouldn't have happened.
On the clear authoritative organization
We call that Jesus. So what He teaches is authoritative. It's really that simple. And (getting back to the topic again) Jesus doesn't teach "violence if they want violence".
Excuse the lag :-D
quite simply start off with fail
First off when you start claiming you know what Christianity teaches and what it doesn't, a religion of a billion+ people, you quite simply start off with fail. Like lets take the Democratic party. I can say something like "blue dog Democrats are hardly Democrats" and it actually makes some sense: the Democratic party has an official organization (the DNC) which has an official platform and the blue dogs would probably disagree with most of it. But even with an official organization and such, someone could very easily make a valid argument that blue dog Democrats are just fine Democrats. Trying to pin down Christianity is several magnitudes more difficult.
So coming up with a definition like "Christianity is the religion of the red text in the New Testament" (a fair summary of your definition? lol) is pretty much completely arbitrary. (There is something called "Red Letter Christianity" btw.) In my mind anyone who says they're Christian is Christian, any theology that claims to be Christian is Christian (within some reason, JC needs to be in there somewhere), because what else do we have to go on.
So you probably could narrow the field a bit and say something like "Quakers teach peace" and I'd agree with you: there's a few Quaker organizations and sects and about the only thing they have in common is being peace-loving.
Which brings me to the second point: most Christians aren't nonviolent. The history of the world would be totally different if they were. Just War theory is old theology developed by the same people who developed the Christianity we know today.
Your defense of the OT's god's genocide reminds me of Nixon "if the president does it, its not illegal". Anyways not a very good role model and certainly not a god I would want to have anything to do with, let alone worship. Remember god didn't commit the genocide, he called on his loyal followers to do so. No way.
unfail
Well here we've identified the heart of our disagreement. You seem to be saying that Christianity can not be boiled down to its core beliefs (or that it has no "core" beliefs)
There are core beliefs and anything which disagrees with those can no longer, credibly be a-part-of/associated-with Christianity. Sure, neither you nor I can tell if someone is or isn't Christian just because they say so (this is solely God's domain). However, if someone's claiming to be a part of group A, and then doing to do things counter to group A's philosophy/charter/creed etc, I'd be skeptical.
Of course if you fail to accept that there are defining qualities of said group then it becomes convenient and easy to blame that group whenever you feel the need. Both when it's warranted and when it isn't.
Being unable to agree on the "core beliefs" point, this discussion seems an exercise in arguing for arguing's sake though, and tonight, I don't have so much time.
By the by I'll bring us back to the original issue again which was
Christians can, and have done horrible things, but that wasn't something that Christianity taught them. If we weren't capable of doing these things, what would be the need to be saved?
immense presumption
Well I'm saying that to claim ownership of "Christianity" is an immense presumption. That was really my problem with your original tweet.
Are you even a pacifist? Like even if set aside discussing a theological definition of what is "true Christianity" (which I'd argue doesn't exist of course) and look at it more as a social scientist might, pacifism isn't something often associated with Christianity. It's one thing to sin, its another to say that your war is justified in your religion. Christians have fought in wars throughout history including right now. Some probably did feel they were sinning by participating in war, but many did not due to various religious arguments made to justify various wars, eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war
Btw this new theme has a ridiculously small comment box. :D And no line breaks for some reason.
Ownership?
I'm not claiming ownership of anything. It is what it is. Simple and uncomplicated.
As to whether I'm a pacifist? What's that got to do with anything. Whether I am or not, I have no basis to say that any violence is perpetrate is taught by Jesus. Cause it ain't. Just because someone can make an argument to justify a war (look no further than Bush) and quote from the Bible, doesn't mean that the Bible teaches violence.
In case you haven't gotten it by now, this has largely been a semantic argument. My specific issue is with your use of the word teach. Christianity teaches very specific things. Violence has never been one of them. You statement in effect was incorrect. People can try to argue for many things from the Bible: war, slavery, misogyny, genocide, but none of these things are taught by Christianity, because none of these things are taught by Jesus.
And I changed the theme just for you ;-)